Oh no you didn't...

I get very few trolls but when I do, I always leave the comments up.  I'm not gonna censor anyone who wants to talk some shit anonymously over the internet.  I don't really care.

But this comment I felt worthy of a response from my post yesterday:

i'm voting yes on prop 8 because children have a right to a mom and a dad.

government already regulates marriage. it says brothers and sisters can't get married, in some states, people with certain diseases can't get married.

government doesn't care about marriage because of love. it cares becuase of any children that will result.

i think same-gender couples can make great parents, but they can't equal the influence of a mom and a dad.
i think the state of california should do everything it can to encourage this situation.

it really has nothing to do with whether or not homosexuality is immoral or whatever.

here are some interesting posts:
http://prop8discussion.wordpress.com/2008/11/03/gender-matters-children-have-a-right-to-a-mom-and-a-dad-day-7/

http://prop8discussion.wordpress.com/category/separate-but-equal/

http://prop8discussion.wordpress.com/category/another-myth-dispelled/

thanks for your post. you are obviously a very delightful person.

So I took the first link to see what sort of discussion was happening in the standard "OMG WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN" argument and found the following:

From my dad I learned lots of things. Everything from how to paint a fence white to how to wax my car. For the purposes of this list I am going to focus on the things that only a male-figure-who-loved-me could have shown me:

1. How to respect people.

2. When and where it is appropriate to cry (I’m a big cry baby–but better now because of watching my dad).

3. How to have confidence with people who intimidate me

4. How to make people I’ve just met feel comfortable.

5. How to never never give up (on anything I love doing).

6. How to feel loved and corrected at the same time.

From my mom I learned lots of things. Everything from how to properly wash dishes to how to invite friends to a party. But these are things I could only learn from my mom because she is my mom:

1. how to develop close personal relationships with people I love

2. how to create an atmosphere with my own personality (as in how to make a situation better just by my own attitude)

3. how to feel confident about myself and my body in general

4. how to respond to others with encouragement and excitement rather than frustration and criticism. (in order to teach, notify, get what i need, or simply do something nice for someone).

5. how to smooth out rifts and stress in conversations, friendships and family matters (this is a gift i use everyday in my professional life).

6. when it’s okay to accept and offer service.

 

*THUD*  Oh sorry that was just the sound of my jaw dropping.  WHAT YEAR IS THIS?  1952? 

First let me say that children do not deserve a mother with a vagina and a father with a penis.  Children deserve to be planned for and wanted.  Children deserve clean drinking water and nutritious food.  Children deserve vaccinations and medical care.  Children deserve proper education and encouragement.  Children deserve to have parents who love each other and want to be together voluntarily and not because they were pressured into marriage after the condom broke that night Mamma and Pappa had unprotected sex after drinking too much Boones Farm at the monster truck rally.

Yesterday I met a friend of a friend who had been teaching English to children in Peru.  She was telling me how these children had terrible yellow diarrhea because their bodies lacked the enzymes required to digest healthy food.  She told me how she had to clean the children up because they had the diarrhea directly in their pants as the mothers of some children can't afford disposable diapers.

Back in the 1st world, things aren't that much better.  Children are born to single parents who neither wanted them nor can afford them.  They are placed in crowded schools with underpaid teachers.  Children are beaten, neglected, raped, passed around foster family to foster family, EVERY SINGLE DAY. 

So what you're trying to say to me is, that two adults who WANT to adopt a child (or have one biologically) is something I should be concerned about?  Let's think this through.  Two adult men who love each other, have two sources of income, who want and fight and pray for a child to love and raise...children deserve better than this?   Do you have a problem with a widow raising a child?  How about a single father?  How it is worse when there is a second adult present to care for, love, finance the life of a VERY planned for baby? 

I'd like to open this up for some discussion.  I would LOVE to hear from anyone who wants to share, what are some essential lessons you learned from your mother or your father that go against the "traditional" views of gender as stated above.  I'll go first:

From my mother I learned how to change a tire.  Yes.  My mother taught me how to put on a spare.  She also taught me to drive stick shift. 

My mother as a business owner has been a role model to me.  She's shown me to be tough but not hardened.  She taught me to take risks and to put yourself out there and to not expect everyone to like me.  She taught me to keep those that "get it" close and who the fuck cares what anyone else thinks?

My dad taught me to braid my hair.  He taught me that it's better to just admit you're wrong than try to sweep it under the rug with smug confidence and backpeddling.  He taught me that you can fuck up really badly to the point where it seems like all hope is gone but as long as you're still breathing, there is still a chance to turn it around.  My dad taught me that it's okay to cry.  My god, he cries at just about every baseball game I've been to with him.  I can't even tell you about what my Dad is like when we watch Field of Dreams or The Natural.  He taught me that men don't have to be robots.

How about the rest of you?  Any of you raised by an untraditional family?  A single parent?  What did you learn from your parents? 

 

Comments

[cassandra]

i LOVE that you posted this. LOVE. much props to you girl. my mother taught me to like sports. she grew up as a tomboy - i've never heard anyone holler at the TV in our house as much as she does during a baseball game (well, except me during the world series). she taught me math. she taught me that i could whatever i wanted to regardless of being a female.

my father taught me about music and the arts. he is one of the most creative people i've ever had in my life. he's also a chef. my father taught me to cook, and paint, how to be patient and kind, and that family is the most important thing we have.

there are no rules here. children have the right to be LOVED, and i don't think it matters by whom. it just matters that it happens.

[rachel]

i grew up in a traditional family, where my dad taught me to make oatmeal cookies, and my mom taught me to stand up for myself (which, unfortunately, all too often took the form of "backtalk." but still, good lesson.) i absolutely agree that children deserve the basics of life, like good food, safe shelter, medicine, education, support, and love. what they *don't* deserve are archaic gender and family stereotypes that prevent a better life (in the form of asinine legislation), limit their identities, and stifle intellectual, spiritual, and creative growth.

[Becky]

Children deserve to have parents who love each other and want to be together voluntarily and not because they were pressured into marriage after the condom broke that night Mamma and Pappa had unprotected sex after drinking too much Boones Farm at the monster truck rally.

And welcome to my life. :-) And you know what? My father is a prick and was an AWFUL father. But you know, man & woman is the only way to go. Bullshit!

[meinkc]

To me it doesn't really matter who taught me what kind of thing or whether it fit within the confines of traditional gender expections, although those kinds of examples help defeat the goofy premise outlined by the post above, and are interesting for sure.

For me it's more that anybody in the world cared a whit about me or wanted to teach me anything at all. Or spend any time with me. Like reading to me until way after my articulated bedtime because we both loved the story. Or waving good-bye to me until my train/bus/plane was long gone. Or tending to me when I was sick and there was vomiting involved and stuff (which takes a certain kind of mettle or super true love to deal with to be sure). Or who sits front and center at silly school plays (in which you are in the back row barely visible) beaming with pride and snapping an inordinate number of photographs.

If you have anyone in your life (male or female) who joyfully and willingly wants to do any of these things for you - to be happy being with you, watching you grow, showing up at your stuff, supporting you, and best of all, really really loving you for who you are - you are a lucky little creature indeed.

It's my thought that the government can't stop Good and True things from manifesting. Love can't be regulated. Okay maybe for a while. But the force of Good and True things is just too strong for short-sighted icky people with rickety little premises, cranky dispositions, and hearts two sizes too small.

Have faith. I'll think good thoughts for you all out west tomorrow and will be voting with you in spirit. :)

[lisa & Alfie at The Pickled Hutch]

Okay. Here goes. First of all, my mother was a widow at age 31 thanks to the Vietnam War. She had 4 children, ages 1.5-6yrs old, youngest still in diapers at the time. We have not had the traditional family structure. I can say it would have been so much easier with another "parent" to help with raising us, teaching us values, ethics, respect of fellow humans, right from wrong. It would have been so much easier to have had a "partner" to help carry the emotional and financial load. it is not the sex of the parent that would have provided all that, it would have been the character and strength of that parent. Roles and what they provide, are not determined by gender but by what is needed. My mom had no choice but to meet the expectations of both roles, to be everything to us. She taught us how to paint a house, change air filters, be kind to others, mow lawns, fix the leak in our bike tires, clean a scrape, create good study habits, cry, be a good human being. And she did the best she could. But to say it could have been so much easier with two parents is a huge understatement.
That being said, to say a single parent is more desirable and healthier than 2 loving, available parents regardless of gender is naive, ridiculous and posted by someone who has never been in that position. There are too many parentless children who are NOT better off than if they had 2 same sex parents who want to give them a loving home. How can they be?
Thanks for the space to rant Leslie.
Lisa & her non-traditional son, Alfie

[corine]

It's hard to deal with trolls. I had one today... and she happens to be a personal friend. Oh no she didn't!!!

Neither of my parents were fit to raise kids if you ask me. Had I been the child of a well-adjusted gay couple I might be doing better things with my life than blogging it away.

Keeping my fingers crossed for tomorrow.

[Sol]

Hi Leslie, thanks for your post.
According to these people who advocate for marriage only because of the children, divorce when a couple has children should also be banned.
What is next?

[Tony - Free-games-247.com]

Thanks, keep up your great post !

[LucyinStLou]

Love this post! My mom taught me it's important to wait until you are older and have had a life before settling down. She was always 5-10 years older than the moms of the other kids in my grade, but I thought that was pretty cool since she was also waaay more educated and had seen lots more than their parents. She introduced me to our wonderful extended family which is has plenty of couples in loving relationships with people of the same sex. My dad taught me patience, kindness to people who are different, to not care what people think, and to get over my Type A personality already.

[tara]

My dad taught me that men are slack-ass morons who are too good to do housework and care for their families.

My mom taught me that I don't have to take shit from lazy, entitled assholes, and that divorce is better sooner than later.

[Janey]

What I learned from my lesbian mother, her partner, her ex-husband/my dad, and everyone else in the family-

I am okay whether I like men or women. Love is what matters.

My son has four grandmothers. What could be luckier than that?

[Straight Against Eight]

My mother taught me how to stand up for myself, but more importantly, I think, she taught me how to stand up for others who are unable to stand up for themselves.

In this race, which at the time of my writing seems about to be lost...or "won" by those who believe in equal rights for the majority but not for the minority...the issue at hand is not "the children." "The children" are not affected by the passing or failing of Prop 8. Gay couples can and do raise children, no matter their marital status. If they lose their right (and I believe it to be a basic civil right to allow adults of a minority the same rights as those of the majority) to marry, the ability to raise children will remain unaffected. It will be the adults who lose and see their rights ripped away from them...The children most affected will be the children they once were...and the children who will grow up to be second class citizens, unable to marry.

Oh, and what did my father teach me? My step dad taught me that love from a parent who is not biologically your is as strong and effective as the love from any biological parent.

[stephanie]

What disturbs me most is that the list assumes my mother CANNOT teach me those things! What? I'd also like to share my experience: my two daughters were taught by there father patience and sensitivity. They were taught by me, their mother, how to be aggressive, play sports, be loud, fart and laugh about it (gross but true), how it's o.k. to get dirty, be barefoot, pick up bugs, etc. Their dad, bless his heart, taught them to sing and play guitar. We are side-by-side on the feminine/masculine spectrum but it works.

I wonder what the next step is in this fight for equality?

Thanks!

[Jen]

Leslie -- Thank you for this post. I posted the following comment on the above site. I have a sneaking suspicion it won't be approved. :)

>

[Jen]

Whoops, trying that again, here's what I posted there:

Are you kidding? I was raised by a single mother. I was wanted, loved and cared for. I am now in a happy marriage, a good mom to my son, a small business owner, a caring friend and a volunteer. This comes from the values and unconditional love given to me by my mom. Are you saying I am somehow deficient for having had one parent? I had strong male role models around me who taught be about art, literature, sports, politics, cooking — not to mention kindness, strength, intellectual curiosity, taking joy in everyday life and being a good listener. Are any of these specifically male or female traits?

Your argument is pretty weak, and it sounds like bigotry with nice production values.

[Kerry]

Leslie,

Thanks so much for posting about this. I'm lucky enough to live in Massachusetts, a state in which same sex marriage is not only legal, but widely accepted. I was horrified that on the same day that the country, as a whole, seemed to make a giant leap forward with the election of Obama that there where also many steps backward not only in California, but around the country.

I am baffled that the many examples of loving families and thriving children are not enough to at least make opponents reexamine their beliefs and be more open to lives that may be different from their own.

I was raised by a mom who taught me to be accepting and thoughtful in my ways. Now as an adult, wife and mother of a five year old I try to instill the same values in my son. It is the hope of my husband and I that when our son reaches adulthood this issue won't even be in debate.

Thanks again,

Kerry

[Jac]

I'll start with my less than popular opinion. I remember school as very traumatic. I was a plump child, and kids can be amazingly cruel. So if you told me that I could go back and repeat my childhood with better (more loving, caring, even wealthier) albeit gay parents, I don't think I would take you up on it. Has nothing to do with needing a man and woman in my life. Has everything to do with wanting to start on a level playing field, and I, as a child, wouldn't have the stamina to fight that good fight and stand up for ideas. I'm not sure you should ask that of any child. Would I be a stronger person? Yes I'm sure, but at 15 I just wanted someone to ask me to the dance.

Still. What this commenter brings up, about children, has nothing to do with marriage. Marriage is not a pre-requisite for child rearing. Maybe this looks like a family issue, but it's not. No one takes away the baby if a marriage license isn't presented. Perhaps I'm confused, but from where I sit, what two married people gain in this country is (perhaps) access to health care and tax breaks.

[Diva Style]

I am proud of my country too...NOW, LOL, but um, the people who voted to deny gays the right to marry are a hot ass mess. I have no idea why anyone would even want to waste energy denying same sex couples these rights. These same heterosexual people aren't even in "happily ever after" relationships themselves...and I oughta know--I am one! This is a crock of shat. I believe in God, and consider myself a Christian, and I would NEVER vote in favor of denying people their happiness...I mean damn, you would think someone was being harmed or put at risk (in which case I would understand being against this), but they're not. People just want to live their lives with the person they love. I'm sorry...I thought that was a HUMAN RIGHT. I mean honestly...these folk are trying to uphold the pristine ideal of "marriage"...but let's not forget...the same people who created this idealogy back in the day also considered Black people like me 3/5 of a person. Um, seriously? We're supposed to uphold garbage like this that was written by the likes of hypocrites? Who the hell do these people think they are--Jesus?